Need advise pls. buying a used vehicle

[Laidback]

I moved this one on this forum as per conversation (thru pm) with Mal and we both agreed this would be a good discussion and would be very informative for all of us...




Laidback---I have a friend in Vegas who recently bought a used e39 M5 from an independent dealer and after three days of ownership he had a major loss of power while driving it on the freeway. Anyway i advised him to bring it back to the dealership were he brought it . It turns out when they pulled the codes on the DME it was...Engine over revved and timing chain pulled! and the dealer tried to fix but to no avail...Now at this point he calls me and tells me about the code and as far as I know he's motor is toast base on the code ( possible bent valves )...Now i have asked him repeatedly if he mis shifts and he said no...he bought an aftermarket warranty when he purchase the car but base on the DME code, they can claim driver error or abuse of the motor and can void the warranty...The dealer is asking him to bring it to the BMW dealer because they can no longer fix the car, I told him to return the car and ask for a refund...Is my friend hosed right now? and any advise would be helpful...thanks

Mal---Sounds like it. The seller and the warranty company can claim mis-use. Do you want to post this in the Lemon law section and see what responses we get from those of us who have some knowledge? Technically it's not a Lemon law question, but WTF. Give it a try.



Mal--- Try Lemon Law. Most people check to see what the new posts are, so they should find it. If you want, you can quote your original PM to me and my reply to you to get things started. Details about the after-market warranty, the condition of the 5er, and whether there is any suspicion the condition pre-existed the purchase, would all be helpful (if known), but it will certainly get things going. It is an interesting subject. How do we know, for example, when the engine was over-revved. Cobradav's encyclopedic knowledge will be of help, too. )It also is a cautionary tale - never buy an M car without detailed inspection. True of the E39 and even more true of the E60 and E63/4.

Okay, everybody. Pitch in and let's help Laidback and his friend.

[boxboss]

It would seem to me that if the motor had been over-reved and the valves bent/timing chain "pulled" (whatever that is) prior to his taking ownership, it would have been obvious on a test drive. That is, the loss of power would have been there continuously since the event took place...not some days after his friend took ownership.

Either 1)he failed to test drive the car - in which case he has to blame himself or 2)he is responsible for the condition the motor is in and he has to blame himself.

SOL

Edit: Don't all BMW engines protect themselves from overrevving? I know a few that would haved limped home if that were not the case.

[Laidback]

Yes BMW engines as far as I know protect the engine from Over revving but not when you downshift...I specifically told him to get a PPI on ANY used car he or anyone who ask for my advise because of this kind of situation :old: but he got excited and pulled the trigger :-o ...Good point MAl on how will we know if the motor was over revved prior on purchasing the car but I asked my friend and he said that the car felt strong upon delivery and the dealer or the previous owner could have erased everything before the sale of the car...the only thing my friend felt was the car went on limp mode ( sudden loss of power) and while on 6th gear at that time he put the gear in neutral and downshifted to fourth :headache: (i think that's when he hurt the engine) but he said he never felt anything (rattle or wharsoever) when he downshifted to fourth and he said the car felt normal after...but when he brought it back to the local dealer were he bought the car they diagnosed the car (been in the shop for 6 days now) that the DME showed over revved and timing chain pulled :headache: ...I don't even know what to tell him at this point as Mal said the aftermarket warranty and the seller can opt for driver abuse if he ever put a claim...Btw he wants to get a second opinion and bring it to the BMW dealer in Vegas but he's afraid that if he take the car over there, the chances of him fighting or getting the refund would be less as the car will not be on the the local dealer were he purchase it...

[boxboss]

I'd like for RichardinNC to chime in on this one. He knows a lot about the e39 M5.

[Spyder]

I assume that this is a manual shift car, not an SMG which would, I believe, prevent over revving on down shifts. The fact that your bud was in 6th gear, and then down shifted TWO gears just prior to loss of power, implies that the engine was indeed over revved. This condition could result in timing chain slippage, valves being bent, or even valves hitting pistons if the engine has overlap. It is highly unlikely that a prior episode of over revving would have left the car in good condition, while rendering it more susceptible to damage the second time around. Methinks that this will be a hard case for your bud to win on a warranty claim.

As a side note, I offer my own sad experience on over revving. In 1970 a young pup Spyder purchased his first new car, a 240Z. As I would find out months later, the vibration it had on delivery was due to a drive shaft out of balance. But, during a test drive to diagnose the problem, the service manager at the dealer over revved the engine with me in the passenger seat, thereby causing a very audible tick to suddenly come from the engine...along with the aforementioned vibration. Long story short, the top end of the engine was rebuilt under warranty, but even with two weeks at their test center, Datsun (that's what they were called back then) could never resolve the vibration. A race shop in Pasadena (Frank Monise) diagnosed the problem in 15 min, dropped the shaft, welded on the correct weight, and the car was perfect until I sold it for more than I paid for it over 120k mi later.

Spyder

[BHR4CE1]

I sold it for more than I paid for it


So THAT'S how you funded the garage project!

[Spyder]

I sold it for more than I paid for it


So THAT'S how you funded the garage project!

Yes, compounding (for 30 yrs) is your friend :bow: BTW, I sold it to buy a 3.0CS, till this day my ATF car :bmw: :cheer:

Spyder

[Laidback]

Syder,

Well said...I think he's hosed on the warranty but is there anyway he can return the car from were he bought it and claim the car as lemon?

[Spyder]

It's hard to see how the seller would accept the car back as a lemon with the over rev diagnosis. Used car dealers are not known for their largess.